Playing Monsters

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Playing Monsters

Postby JasonTime » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:33 pm

In the situations given below, what will happen?

When I play a [Samael's Little Helper], can I:

1. VS [Samael, the Fallen]
Gain an additional 1 Power from [Samael, the Fallen], since I play a Monster?

2. VS [Cell Block E]
Treat it as a Mechana Construct, though [Samael's Little Helper]'s effect has changed itself into a Hero?
If yes, can I get an additional 2 Power from [Samael Claus]?
If what I play is ordinary Monsters and I have [Samael, the Fallen] in play (which consider the Monster as Hero), what will happen instead?

3. VS [Xeron's Trial]/[Xeron, False Ally]
Gain an additional 2 Power/Runes, though [Samael's Little Helper]'s effect has changed itself into a Hero?
If what I play is ordinary Monsters and I have [Samael, the Fallen] in play (which consider the Monster as Hero), what will happen instead?
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Re: Playing Monsters

Postby Hemka » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:14 pm

Card text, for reference:

Samael's Little Helper: "Monster. Reward: Gain (1 Honor). Choose a player and put this in that player's discard pile. While in a player's deck, this is a Hero with, "Gain (1 Power) for each Samael's Little Helper you play or have played this turn (including this one).""

Samael the Fallen "Monster. Unbanishable. Reward: Gain (8 Honor). Place this face up in front of you. For the rest of the game, when you defeat a Monster in the center row or the Void, you may acquire it. Monsters in your deck are considered Heroes. When you play them, you gain their (Power)."

Cell Block E "Mechana Construct. When you defeat a monster in the center row or play a Monster, you may put it directly into play and treat it as a Mechana Construct"

Xeron's Trial "Monster Event. When you play a Monster, gain (2 power). Pay (8 power): Transform this into Xeron, False Ally and acquire it"

Xeron, False Ally "Transformed Hero. Gain (5 runes). Gain an additional (2 runes) for each Monster you play or have played this turn."
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Re: Playing Monsters

Postby Hemka » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:39 pm

This is a very interesting question. These are my thoughts: (also for reference a FAQ about timing: https://stoneblade.zendesk.com/hc/en-us ... /212259506)

Samael's Little Helper (SLH) specifically says that it is a hero while it is in a player's deck. Step 4 of the linked FAQ says to resolve monster rewards, so in this case you must put this in a discard pile of a player. And at that point that monster becomes a hero (reading the rest of the reward text). After that, in step 5, "Resolve anything that triggered off of defeating or acquiring the card/cards in the Center Row". But at this point the monster has become a hero, so Cell Block E could not put it into play as a Mechana Construct.

As for the other cards, when SLH enters a deck it is no longer a monster. "While in a player's deck, this /is/ a hero." So I read that as it is no longer a monster, it is a hero. Probably in a perfect world it would be a transform effect like Adayu. Samael the Fallen says that "monsters are considered heroes", which to me says that they're still a monster AND are also heroes and gain the effect he says, but they have to be monsters first.

So I would say that once SLH enters your deck it gives up the Monster tag and anything that happens when you play a monster doesn't apply to playing SLH.

That's my 2 runes about it.
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Re: Playing Monsters

Postby JasonTime » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:26 am

Hemka wrote:This is a very interesting question. These are my thoughts: (also for reference a FAQ about timing: https://stoneblade.zendesk.com/hc/en-us ... /212259506)

Samael's Little Helper (SLH) specifically says that it is a hero while it is in a player's deck. Step 4 of the linked FAQ says to resolve monster rewards, so in this case you must put this in a discard pile of a player. And at that point that monster becomes a hero (reading the rest of the reward text). After that, in step 5, "Resolve anything that triggered off of defeating or acquiring the card/cards in the Center Row". But at this point the monster has become a hero, so Cell Block E could not put it into play as a Mechana Construct.

As for the other cards, when SLH enters a deck it is no longer a monster. "While in a player's deck, this /is/ a hero." So I read that as it is no longer a monster, it is a hero. Probably in a perfect world it would be a transform effect like Adayu. Samael the Fallen says that "monsters are considered heroes", which to me says that they're still a monster AND are also heroes and gain the effect he says, but they have to be monsters first.

So I would say that once SLH enters your deck it gives up the Monster tag and anything that happens when you play a monster doesn't apply to playing SLH.

That's my 2 runes about it.


I take this issue as a question about the priority of those effects. When I deal with the questions as I play with my friends, I think the answer should be: (Let's use SLH, StF, CBE, Xer as a shorten term for those cards)

1. No (for the same reason as yours). So [SLH] is of higher priority to [StF], [CBE] and [Xer].
2.1. No ([SLH] is now a Hero not a Monster), so it will trigger [Samael Claus] instead.
2.2. When a Monster is defeated, you may acquire it and put it into your discard pile (through [StF]), or put it into your play (through [CBE]). At this timing, both effects are equal in priority in Step 5. When a Monster is in play, it is considered as a Mechana Construct but not anything else (otherwise it will not make sense). But if Monsters in play are destroyed, or are in the deck of a player, they are Heroes but not anything else, so playing Monster cannot trigger [CBE] and [Xer]. ([StF] takes priority and it doesn't say '...also considered Heroes', thus they are not Monsters anymore.)
3.Only if players play Monsters other than [SLH] without [StF] in play, players may trigger [CBE] or [Xer]. If a player chooses to treat a Monster he/she plays as Mechana Construct, it can still trigger [Xer]. Only after the player's playing the Monster can the Monster be treated as Mechana Construct, which means the Monsters were still Monsters while playing.

I don't know if the solution is correct... Maybe it is timing for a supplement to the official FAQ References now?
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